Are you ready for some football?
Welcome to the official blog on high school football for the 2013 season.
During the off-season let’s talk about players, recruiting news, teams and everything about high school football.
During the season each week let’s talk about match-ups and how teams did. Let us know what player(s) stood out each week.
2,248 Responses
Didn’t public schools win 3 of the 4 state titles last year (2012) occupying 6 of the 8 finals slots?
AAAA NORTH ALLEGHENY vs Coatesville
AAA CATHEDRAL PREP vs Archbishop Wood
AA WYOMISSING vs Aliquippa
A CLAIRTON vs Dunmore
(winners in CAPS)
I see. It’s only a crisis when the Catholic schools outnumber the public schools.
In a sense recruiting is a microcosm of human nature; everybody wants their own success regardless of how it effects others, a sort of musical chairs dog eat dog scenario. Of course, there’s nothing wrong with wanting to put oneself in a better, more favorable position but that’s what exacerbates any disparity. It’s the same psychology for real estate; everybody wants to be in the best neighborhood so it adds fuel to the fire, the better neighborhoods get better and the worse neighborhoods get worse. That’s why I totally respect the kids that are content to play for their home district even if it means playing for a weaker program. If more kids did that then suddenly it would become a stronger program.
Just for the heck of it, I went back and read the last 200 or so comments on last years fan blog. Nobody, and I mean nobody, had an issue with the evil Catholic empire. Did that have anything to do with 6 of the final 8 teams being public schools? Amazing how nobody had a care in the world about Imhotep after they lost to Wyomissing. I like debating topics as much as anybody, but all the facts are adding up to a big pile of sour grapes. I haven’t read one comment from Neshaminy fans about how they got shafted because they had to play Prep. No Berks Catholic fans crying either. My guess is because they know how to win and lose with class. You wanna be the best? Then beat the best! I have figured out how to classify the state, to make everybody happy. Districts 2, 4, and 11, aside from 11 AAAA, should have their own playoffs. Districts 1, 3, 11 AAAA, and 12 will compete against the rest of the state. If the Catholic schools in the “I don’t want to play anybody good conference” want to play in the “may the best team win conference”, they would be welcome. Face it, they would be the most logical teams to complain about after the evil empire is gone.
Billy, Jive, phillyboy, Doug, et al.
Thank you for a great forum the last many posts. Discussion, debate, in a proper manner without use of derisive terms. Points made and countered and lots of information to ponder on. Thank you all!
That said, anyone else predicting the game outcomes? I think Prep has a big challenge in PCC. McDevitt cannot have forgotten a 52-0 loss to Wood. IMHO may have too much, but will face one of the best QBs in the state. And Old Forge-PNC? Flip a coin!??!?
Billy,
At least your bringing some ideas. In previous posts I mentioned how the “Just throw the no boundary schools into 4A” idea wouldn’t work. For every PCC, Wood, Erie Prep etc you have Delco Christian, Calvary Christian, MArian Catholic etc. HAving those schools play in 4A would just be silly. The 5A thing would be something that I think could gain some traction. However it was proposed a few years back and was quickly squashed once D7 threatened to leave the PIAA. D7 was against it because it adversely effected their playoffs…..The NON-Public division im not so sure about either. Just how long would a Non public division last before it would just not be worth it? In case anyone hasn’t noticed the Catholic school option is increasingly shrinking by the year. Just in the last few years North Catholic, Cardinal Dougherty, Reading Cath, St Pius, KK, have all closed with many more on the endangered species list. And I know im forgetting a few…..There is just no cut and dry solution. I know ill get some flack for this but the best solution is to do nothing at least for now. In 5-10 years we can look at things and if it gets worse then maybe some change is in order.
Most of this debate was fairly predictable when the final numbers came out this weekend and AAAA and AAA were all Catholics. If the situation was reversed their would be ZERO debate for 2013.
Just a warning about splitting the divisions and adding the additional Non-Public championship,the Privates will get bigger, recruit harder and raid your rosters. A simple solution to the current state of affairs, change your Union regulations and allow Public Schools to sign good coaches. I know it will never happen but it would offset the imbalance immediately. I know you have driver instructor/coaches out there but what professional would accept that position to be a football coach. In a nut shell! The Publics have better facilities, equipment and fields but as a whole (not entirely)the coaching is sub-par.
Build a winning program and the players will stay!!
@ JiveTurkey
To reiterate Billy’s point, it’s not the past that’s concerning – it’s the future. The trend is that “recruiting” or whatever anyone wants to call it, is having a greater effect in talent going away from public schools and collecting in private institutions.
In a way, it shouldn’t be a problem because those kids are just as entitled as any other to seek out their education and strive to be successful. But when it comes to athletics, in a system where public schools cannot have kids outside their district’s boundaries come to their school, in becomes an unfair competative advantage.
It’s not about who wins championships in the past, and it’s not about keeping private school kids away from the same things public school kids have, or vice-versa.
It’s about having a competative playing-field. That’s why they have clasifications in the sports, after all. I agree with Billy where there should be a re-classification, maybe add a 5A or something, because the gap is widening, and it’s only going to get worse.
Billy Splain the 97, 98, 99 CB West teams were LOADED with talent and were huge and athletic…. what are you talking about??
Prediction time:
A- Old Forge 28- North Catholic 13
AA- Imhotep 35- SOuth Fayette 21
AAA- McDevitt 41- Wood 20
AAAA- PCC 35- SJP 24
I’m from Berwick and I can’t believe all the stuff you guys take your quotes from. First Curry did say the stuff he said but he is a 69 year old coach who’s opinions can sometimes be to put it mild “Old Fashioned” as for the Berwick Dawgs facebook page it is ran by fans not some school official. Just because some “nutjobs” post things on Facebook it doesn’t speak for the whole town. Most people realize that to be quite honest this wasn’t Berwick’s most talented team. They definitely overachieved and as Wood does we have quite of bit of players coming back and hopefully they can meet up again try to win the game. This whole private vs public discussion kind of makes me laugh. In a perfect world it would be great if there was no recruiting but it happens and that is the way it is. They have a bigger pool to choose from. Berwick is a town of at most 12,000 people and for almost 40 years we’ve competed at the highest level. We had years where we had 7-10 kids go to Divison 1 schools. Did that make it unfair for the teams we played? It all goes in circles. We had a few down years and are now back on a upswing. All the kids who played in the 80’s and 90’s there kids are coming through and are bigger and stronger. With a young team we made the Final four of AAA. I think that is still a big accomplishment and to hear people like Reddawg and Jive put Berwick down it sucks. Were a community where there are no jobs and nothing going on but football and that is why you have some fans that take it to another level. This is all Berwick has. They did win a baseball state championship in ’08 and back in the late 90’s went to two straight state championships in girls basketball. Once again this coming from a small community. For me I’d be happy to see some of these kids move to Berwick and play. You want a chance at a state title come here. Remember you don’t have to pay like you do for catholic schools…LOL You can play for free. Plenty of people would welcome you into there home. It happens I promise. So I will be cheering for Wood this week and then maybe if Berwick can meet them again next year they can knock off the defending state champion. Just remember you read a couple message boards and facebook please take it for what it is worth. It isn’t the whole town but a select few just don’t get the world changes and we should be happy we have the chance to compete the way we are still 30 years after the first National Championship.
Billy, my tax dollars pay for charter schools. There is no tuition, they are public schools. The Philadelphia public school district spent over $700m on charter schools last year. D12 charters have exactly zero advantage over public schools, when it comes to athletics. Know why? Because they are public schools. I understand the open enrollment argument, I don’t think I would have any ammo to fight that battle. If coach Crosby would have gone to King HS. King, a traditional public, would be the team everybody is talking about. To lump all charters into AAAA would be a travesty. Imhotep is the only charter in D12 that has a very good team. I don’t know that the gap is beginning to widen, but it is definitely closing in football. Over the past 5 years Pub 13 Cath 7. Over the past 3 Pub 7 Cath 5. Basketball, on the other hand, is widening it’s gap towards the Pubs. 5 years Pub 16 Cath 4. 3 years Pub 10 Cath 2. You can’t just look at this one year, and call it a trend. The numbers would say it’s a fluke. If the Catholics start dominating, then it may be time for a change. Right now is just not the time for that debate. The Pubs, over the past 3 years, are winning chips at slightly over 50%, and dominating basketball. Will the time come when this is going to be an issue? Who knows, anything is possible. If we get a bunch of snow this year, it doesn’t mean we are turning into the North Pole. It just means we got a bunch of snow this year. Next year could be sunshine and margaritas. I guess I’m saying let’s not get caught up in one season. I’m from Philly. I have a bit of bias towards D12, some say perhaps more than just a bit.
Once again as I scrEAM IT LOud:
IMHOTEP CHARTER IS NOT A CATHOLIC OR PRIVATE SCHOOL… THEY ARE A PUBLIC ACADEMIC FACILITY..
And anOTHer ShOUT:
THERE IS NO BOUNDARY REQUIREMENT FOR PUBLIC SCHOOLS IN THE CITY OF PHILAhersheyDELPHIA..
ALL D12 PUBLIC SCHOOLS, IN A SENSE, HAVE THE SAME OPPORTUNITIES (but better due to no tuition) TO GET PLAYERS TO PLAY OR ATTEND THEIR SCHOOLS.. ONE BIG MELTING POT OF DOWN-HOME SOUTHEASTERN PA FOOTBALL TALENT..
Now that I finished screaming that, ask yourself why D12 public school football is not as good as D12 Catholic or Private school football?
It’s because of of the PTU (Philadelphia Teachers Union). See, in D12 public schools, only PTU members can be a HC and most (not all), some (not many), are there for the money and not football nor mentorship.
So since D12 can get their players from a Boundary-less pot of football gumbo; you old geezers are ready to put the whole D12 back out of the PIAA? Or will you man-up and coach your teams to be programs who will dominate in the class and on the field?
Once again, I report the following 2013 charter school records:
Furness Charter School was 1-10 this year
Delaware Valley Charter School was 3-9 this year
Olney Charter School was 4-7 this year
Boys Latin Charter School was 4-8 this year
School of the Future was 4-8 this year
Gratz Charter School was 5-7 this year
Prep Charter was 7-4 this year
Mastery Charter North was 10-2 this year
Imhotep Charter is 12-2 this year
Here is the 2013 D12 Catholic School records:
-Carroll 3-6 with loses from DelVal and Penn-Wood
-Egan 3-8 with loses from Roxborough and Truman
-McDevitt 2-7 with loses from Muhlenberg, Franklin, and Cheltenham
-Goretti 6-5 with loses from Springfield-Montco & South Philly
-Bonner 3-8 with a lost from Upper Darby
-Lansdale 6-4
-O’Hara 6-4 with a lost from Academy Park
-Roman Cath 4-7 with a lost from Downingtown East
So who will get their own league? Good Catholic football teams? Good Private football teams?
Let the kids play and the GREAT coaches coach, everyone else just have to catch up..
Jive…again, it’s a gap that is continuing to widen. I’ve acknowledged in the past that the cath/charters haven’t been…but I’m seeing a trend where they are starting to…as you said “you know it (“recruiting”) goes on, I’m saying that CURRENT trends may indeed be starting to show that.
you’re right about the girls and it not being a money sport…but even there it shouldn’t happen. The only current solution I can see in football is for all cath/charters to play in AAAA since that would be about what the population they can draw from is. btw…from where do you hail?
Billy, absolutely agree that girls basketball always has been, and always will be dominated by the Catholic schools. However, girls basketball is not a “money sport”. Ironically the dominant Catholic girls programs, at least in Philly, are kids playing in their geographic location. Wood, Carroll, O’Hara, and Ryan when they were good, are comprised of girls that go to their local school. I found boys basketball state champs going back to the year 2000.
AAAA Pub 14 Cath 0
AAA Pub 9 Cath 5
AA Pub 12 Cath 2
A Pub 6 Cath 8
Total Pub 41 Cath 15
Public wins 73% of boys basketball championships since 2000.
I’m pretty sure, in football, Catholic schools have never won more than 2 of the chips in any year. Pub has swept all 4, I think 4 times. Catholic schools have caught up with the pubs, and now it has become more competitive. So right now the Catholic teams are competing for championships, that have been dominated by the Pub for decades, and that’s an issue? I just don’t see how you can look at the numbers and come to a Catholic dominated conclusion. It’s the complete opposite.
@phillyboy…I didn’t say ohio has split, I said they have different solution…i.e. more classes.
@jive…As I said, the gap is only beginning to widen. In my opinion if it stays on the course it’s on that gap will continue to widen. As for basketball, I know the brackets. Both boys and girls playoff teams are dominated by catholic schools.
I really don’t have a solution. No, I don’t think the cath/pub titles should be split. Maybe something more with having another class, AAAAA, and those schools able to pull from larger regions must play in AAAA or AAAAA? i don’t know, all I know is I’ve seen a lot of teams the last few years and the gap in talent is alarming.
@ Billy Splain
Very well said. Made a lot of reasonable points. I’ve always favored keeping the public and private teams together. It makes for a more pure state championship and also if there is a separation then any potential disparity would get worse. (The only good thing about that is that I’m tired of the North Jersey teams dominating) One minor correction: you offered Ohio as an example of a state where the public and private are separate. That’s not true. Ohio is just like PA and Florida. One other thought is not to overreact. Just last year North Allegheny was the class of the PIAA and played another public team in the final.
@Billy,
I know you saw that on another forum, curious if the split championship is an opinion you agree with. I’m guessing it is, otherwise I doubt you would have posted it. Last school year the
“money sports” had 8 championship games. Public schools won 7 of the 8. I really don’t feel like going back and doing all of the research on basketball, but public schools have won 75% of the football championships over the past 10 years. I would be inclined to think basketball is at least 75% public, probably more. Why are people crying about Catholic schools winning such a small percentage of the championships? Do publics feel they should just be entitled to every trophy? Maybe we should stop keeping score in any game public schools participate in. We could give all of the kids a participation trophy, and call them all champions. I haven’t heard any complaints from the Philly public school people, so I guess they can compete for titles and pass on the participation award.
I did enjoy reading what your thoughts on this, I just don’t agree. Does it mean I’m right our your right? Nope, but I think the championship numbers speak for themselves. How much is the tuition, you mentioned, at Imhotep? What Catholic schools are dominating the basketball scene? As far as recruiting. It’s sad to say, and a complete disgrace, but I have first hand knowledge of teams talking to other schools players. I think it’s a real bad move, but it certainly goes on.
Billy,
Your observations appear to be spot on. Recruiting is a term that gets overused, though I do believe it happens. “Athletic Intent” is the phrase that more people should get familiar with. If any student transfers to a PIAA member school, with athletics being the primary motivation, then they are in violation of the transfer rules and should be banned for a period of no less than one year.
and now for my opinion on the subject:
I really think something needs to be done. I’ve covered games all over the state and I’ll say this: After seeing McDevitt, PCC, Imhotep and ECP I can honestly say their teams are absolutely loaded with talent from top to bottom. ECP/McD game looked like a small college game. I don’t remember any of those Berwick/Southern/Manheim or even the great CBW teams looking as athletic and large as those two teams. They are loaded from top to bottom.
Why?
I believe the landscape of football is changing. Teams in the WPIAL are getting smaller as population decreases. Focus on football is changing with the concussion problems, parents in small communities keeping kids out of football. That leaves those who want their kids to play football for a “way out” to make a choice. They can take a chance and leave them in their respected public schools or move them to a catholic/charter school that has a strong football program. I believe the later is what we are seeing, especially in the Pitt/Erie/Philly area. Yes, some will say “those kids came through the system”….but what system? The Imhotep school only started in 1998…I’m pretty sure a bunch of players went there recently when west catholic announced they may close. I willingly admit I don’t know a lot about Wood, St joes, ECP, PCC and others but I’d be willing to bet a good portion of those players didn’t meet until they were freshmen or sophomores. I’m not saying ALL, but I am saying a good portion (not even most, just a good portion).
I’d also like to say I’m NOT knocking those players and teams but I am knocking the system that has allowed this. It’s been extremely prominent in basketball.
If I could take this argument one step further let’s look at what sports the catholic/charter schools are prominently dominating now: basketball and football…you could realistically call them the “money sports” were there is the most to gain for the players. Baseball, wrestling, track, xcountry, soccer…those sports aren’t seeing the effects of “the system”. Why is that? Well, football and basketball draw bigger crowds and thus can be used as recruiting tools. Not just for the sport but for the school itself. More people see those successes, more people want their kids to be a part of that environment. Yes, those schools need to “recruit” to survive. They need students to come to their schools to pay tuition to survive.
And lastly, I think the term “recruit” should be modified when talking about those teams. I don’t think the coaches go to other kids on other teams and say “come here and play”, I think the school sells their product and people buy it.
Jersey, Ohio, Maryland have all found different solutions. PA hasn’t.
Well, those are my thoughts.
Saw this on another forum:
The PIAA acknowledges that private schools are oftentimes dominating the PIAA championship tournaments. A few years back, many high school principals sent a form letter to PIAA asking that separate championship tournaments be created for public and private schools. PIAA Executive Director Brad Cashman responded to the principals via letter, and said the following:
“We believe that the primary obstacle to substantial reform is the language of the existing legislation. Should you desire to effectuate substantial change, you may want to consider contacting your legislators and seeking an amendment of Section 511 (b.1) of the Public School Code of 1949, as amended.”
Because of their very nature, private schools are vastly different from public schools. Geographic boundaries must be adhered to on the public school level, while private schools have no such limitations. Thus, there aren’t uniform standards being followed. All schools, whether public or private, deserve to know who their respective champions are according to size and type of school.
You don’t have to look any further than New Jersey, New York or Maryland to see examples of states that crown separate public and private school state champions. Pennsylvania’s public schools realize that the 1972 law required the PIAA to admit private schools to the association’s membership rolls if the schools met the membership qualifications. That law requires that the private schools be given membership access, but it does not dictate that they be classified in the same manner as public schools.
When one considers the current classification system, schools are already being classified according to size and gender parameters. If the public and private schools have separate playoff tournaments, all schools would be classified according to “type” of school first. Public schools have no problem with private schools being members of the organization – it is the playoff structure that creates the problems. In fact, if separate playoffs are held for all sports, private schools will be helped from a competition standpoint in some sports.
To remedy this situation that continues yearly, we are asking legislators to do the following:
Propose legislation that ALLOWS (or permits) the PIAA to conduct separate public and private school championship tournaments in any sport where the PIAA Board of Control believes it is appropriate.
Now that there are no public teams left in AAAA I’m rooting for Prep all the way baby. I’m so tired of that PCC baloney. Be a nice time out there; get breakfast at Shady Maple, see Imhotep win AA gold and then hopefully Prep knocks out the glamour program from Pittsburgh.
Just read a story from the Hershey Gazette. There will be several food trucks serving nothing but cheese steaks and soft pretzels next weekend. A flatbed truck is in the works to get the Rocky statue moved to the front doors of Hershey stadium. Ben Franklin may also make an appearance!
@tsaf77,
C’mon man! When the people were talking about “what has D12 done? They’re a joke”. You didn’t defend it, so don’t knock the Hershadelphia comment. You and I have gotten along, for the most part, all year, why get bitter now. Folks in the west could call it Hershaburg, it’s witty and it fits. For the first time ever D12 has 3 teams in the finals and you suburban guys are doing your best to discount it. Wasn’t a problem when D1 was good, so what’s the problem now?
@Reddawgs,
I checked out that FB page after looking at your post. Thanks for posting it! I guess all I can say to the people on that page is, HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ok got a question. With the McDevitt/Wood final would it already be considered an eastern victory? For me I just don’t consider D3 a western district. I think the lines have certainly been altered. For so many years it was D 7,8,9,5,6 and 10 in as the “west” and 1,2,3,4,11 as the “east”. Since D12 was added I know they moved D3 to the west in 3A and 4A but kept them east for 1A and 2A. I felt the same way 2 years ago with the CD/NP 4A final. I considered it 2 east teams…………What does everyone think?
State finals predictions AAAA and AAA
AAAA PCC 42 St. Joes Prep 14
Great defense and knock you out offense. Yes, PCC is that good!
AAA Bishop McDevitt 38 Wood 28
McDevitt on a roll since the loss to Cedar Cliff where they were torched by Virgina Tech bound QB Andrew Ford and after beating the consensus best AAA team in the state